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Author Topic: GrimGrimoire electronic mini strategy guide now available!  (Read 22694 times)
Lynxara
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2007, 08:19:38 PM »

Odin Sphere's plotline is forgettable boilerplate, and you're probably not going to convince me otherwise. It's did not compel me personally, and is not territory video games (and manga, and fantasy novels) haven't gone over plenty of times before. Odin Sphere's graphics are pretty compelling, but that's another subject entirely.

(Also, I thought the plotlines for most of the replays were pretty problematic since they ended up structured around recycling sprites, but as in all things, YMMV. They aren't bad, but felt like they could've been easily improved with a little more effort.)

If you get slowdown in Odin Sphere, it means they programmed the game wrong. You either get the slowdown out of the program entirely or make the slowdown conditions impossible. They didn't, and they aren't. The game isn't unenjoyable because of it, certainly, but it's a technical flaw in that it can be experienced. Excusing it is saying "Yes, I don't mind bugs and programming errors, give me more shoddy product, please."

There's no excuse for slowdown in modern 2D games, and if it happens, it's the result of rushed or sloppy programming. Odin Sphere overall struck me as rushed, so I'd say that if Vanillaware had another six months with the game, the slowdown would've been eliminated entirely. Of course, in general, I didn't like Odin Sphere as much as a lot of internet gamers did, so take my opinions as such.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 08:26:26 PM by Lynxara » Logged
Golby
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2007, 11:14:46 PM »

For this I'm going to have to..


I'm not excusing the programmers, I'm just saying that a lot (95%) of the time when slowdown happens in OS the player is walking into a death sentence.

Plot quality is generally subjective.  I've seen worse and better, and for a game that actually gives a damn about its storyline Odin Sphere manages to do it without making me want to get a barf bag. Having voice acting that doesn't suck helps too.

Asking for a non-rushed commercial game is like asking for Blizzard to make Engineering not-suck.
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[15:38] Golby: Apparently, someone got Heavy with a medigun somehow on accident
[15:39] Golby: I guess that means TF2 now has..
[15:39] Golby: SOCIALIZED MEDICINE
[15:39] Golby: *shades*
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Lynxara
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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2007, 11:27:45 AM »

Oh snap, MACRO'd.

I never died 'cause of slowdown in Odin Sphere (really, I... never died) so while that's an interesting perspective on it, I can't quite agree with it.

Quote
Plot quality is generally subjective.

Yes and no. Your personal reaction to it, and particularly the characters, will be subjective. For instance, I really sort of hated most of the Odin Sphere cast, but I know a lot of people disagree with me. Hell, there are people out there who enjoyed Xenosaga and Stella Deus, too. That doesn't make either story "good", just like dislike does not make it "bad". Because, really, most people who buy a video game want to be entertained, and will be perfectly happy with junk as long as it's the right kind of junk.

There is still a technical, fairly objective level upon which writing can be discussed. There are forms and guidelines for the craft, techniques and tricks, and plenty of room for comparing what one story did to another and seeing how they worked. People generally don't even try to discuss game stories on this level, because they're desperate for things that aren't outright crap. I think we need to, if we ever want video games to be better than they are now.

Most Japanese video game stories are warmed-over anime or manga plots. Odin Sphere wasn't as bad about it as a lot of stuff out of Japan these days, but the core plot was still a basic magical girlfriend story on a lot of levels, full of (reasonably tasteful) fanservice and silly dialogue. This doesn't need to be the gold standard for video game storytelling. It's inoffensive, I might even concede better-executed than average, but ideal? A reason to seek out the game? No.

(I'll take no stance on localization; Odin Sphere's was not particularly bad in any way, so I can see enjoying it a lot. I didn't, but it also never sent me screaming to the Japanese language track. To roughly get back on topic, I really enjoyed the hell out of Grim Grimoire's localization, by the by.)

Quote
Asking for a non-rushed commercial game is like asking for Blizzard to make Engineering not-suck.

I could throw out a lot of examples of games that didn't get released until they were damned well ready, and all the better and more successful for it. I won't, because I'd end up doing an hour of research to pick the titles I wanted to use, and holy crap but I have a lot of other errands to run today. I really shouldn't even be replying, but I'm interested enough to be a little bad anyways.

All I will say is this: there's an approach used by Japanese "niche" developers like Vanillaware, where roughly twelve months is spent on any particular title. Anything that can be recycled will be; corners that can be cut will be. Odin Sphere, for example, recycled the engine from Princess Crown despite a lot of its features fundamentally clashing with the director's remit for Odin Sphere's gameplay (which was roughly "make a title where the tide of any battle can be turned instantly by an item made in advance").

This is not standard across the board for Japanese development, where spending two or three years on a title isn't uncommon. It's really not standard for Western development, where a game might have eighteen months of work behind it before it's even announced. I feel it's basically sloppiness on the part of the niche developers, who know they have an eager audience that will show up just because it's 2D and just because they want to learn about the characters.

So, yeah, I think it's cool to call Vanillaware on rushing Odin Sphere out the door (or Nippon Ichi for rushing a title out every year, or Gust for churning out eight billion games on the same engine every year). I would say it's even necessary when the dev cycle is making the games suffer. Otherwise these guys will think what they do is okay because it makes the fans happy, and keep cutting corners. It's not their job to want to make good games, although they should; it is our job as fans to demand quality product. When we fail to do that, we invite everything we say we hate about video games.
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Golby
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« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2007, 11:51:06 AM »

I never died 'cause of slowdown in Odin Sphere (really, I... never died)
EASY MODE.

LYNXARA PLAYS GAMES ON EASY MODE.




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[15:38] Golby: Apparently, someone got Heavy with a medigun somehow on accident
[15:39] Golby: I guess that means TF2 now has..
[15:39] Golby: SOCIALIZED MEDICINE
[15:39] Golby: *shades*
[15:39] Golby: YYEEEAAAAHHHHHHHH
[15:39] Kitty: I hate you.
[15:40] Golby: I'm now sigging this
[15:41] Kitty: I hate
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2007, 01:59:33 PM »

I thought the story in odin sphere by itself could have been better but the relationships between the characters got to me and in the end thats all that matters.  All I ask from a game is some sort of emotional scene (usually the ending) that makes me shed a tear and I am happy with the story. 

So far where I am in GrimGrimoire the story seems way worse than odin sphere though.  I might change my mind completely by the end of GG but so far, the story is shown in such small chunks that its hard to get any continuity at all.  I can hardly wrap my head around one event and then its the next day again.  It feels like if they spent more time on xenosaga long cutscenes I could understand more of the story but way too much of it makes no sense at all.  Hopefully by the final cycle it will all make some sense. 
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Golby
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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2007, 02:00:42 PM »

Your opinion is invalid because you are a furry.
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[15:38] Golby: Apparently, someone got Heavy with a medigun somehow on accident
[15:39] Golby: I guess that means TF2 now has..
[15:39] Golby: SOCIALIZED MEDICINE
[15:39] Golby: *shades*
[15:39] Golby: YYEEEAAAAHHHHHHHH
[15:39] Kitty: I hate you.
[15:40] Golby: I'm now sigging this
[15:41] Kitty: I hate
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I was getting tired of that picture too.


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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2007, 05:15:59 PM »

Your opinion is invalid because you are a furry.

That, and your avatar is retarded.
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Thank you for your continued support of everything that is wrong with game design today.

You're welcome. /bow
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« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2007, 05:13:53 PM »

*Golby*, Lynxie just clusterf*cked *bleen*'s logic.

To wit: I gotta go with her on this one, especially regarding her stances on slowdown and sprite recycling.
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"I'll be all right even if I undertake all sorts of sadness
I don't need any consideration by others
I just want to be myself
Anywhere and with anybody"

-Last Dino
Golby
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« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2007, 06:44:14 PM »

No, my logic still wins because I have a bigger *raw mutton*.
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[15:38] Golby: Apparently, someone got Heavy with a medigun somehow on accident
[15:39] Golby: I guess that means TF2 now has..
[15:39] Golby: SOCIALIZED MEDICINE
[15:39] Golby: *shades*
[15:39] Golby: YYEEEAAAAHHHHHHHH
[15:39] Kitty: I hate you.
[15:40] Golby: I'm now sigging this
[15:41] Kitty: I hate
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« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2007, 07:07:09 PM »

Bigger than Lynxie's? That remains to be proven.
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"I'll be all right even if I undertake all sorts of sadness
I don't need any consideration by others
I just want to be myself
Anywhere and with anybody"

-Last Dino
Golby
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« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2007, 07:20:36 PM »

Far bigger than Lynxie's.
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[15:38] Golby: Apparently, someone got Heavy with a medigun somehow on accident
[15:39] Golby: I guess that means TF2 now has..
[15:39] Golby: SOCIALIZED MEDICINE
[15:39] Golby: *shades*
[15:39] Golby: YYEEEAAAAHHHHHHHH
[15:39] Kitty: I hate you.
[15:40] Golby: I'm now sigging this
[15:41] Kitty: I hate
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« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2007, 12:31:41 AM »

Perhaps, but I think she's got you beat in the balls department.
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"I'll be all right even if I undertake all sorts of sadness
I don't need any consideration by others
I just want to be myself
Anywhere and with anybody"

-Last Dino
Zerase Miakis
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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2007, 06:21:45 AM »

Lol geez you guys xD

Anyway I just got GrimGrimoire yesterday, I'm on my second lap of the repeating 5 days (finally seem to be out of the tutorial stage) so far I'm enjoying it. I won't be able to play OdinSphere until  David comes to visit >.< so I can't really compare them. I'll give GG more time, but so far things are great, I only wish I could zoom out the camera since it's hard to pay attention to everything going on when I'm zoomed in on one tiny part of the map.
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« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2008, 06:01:07 PM »

good guide.
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